After running what appeared to be an amusing looking poll on the ADYKE site
(a list for self identified Lesbians over 40)it seems the owner Michelle
Brevard has appointed herself to be the Lesbian Police. Basically, she
unequivocally decided that the few women who polled in as bi-sexual could
NOT be Lesbians so they were promptly removed from the list with no warning
or explanation. Even when one protested that she was most definately a
Lesbian, there was no turning back. "You said it therefore you are."

Posted by: "adyke@yahoogroups.com" adyke@yahoogroups.com
Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:13 pm (PST)
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the adyke group:

What is your sexual orientation?

o Lesbian
o Bisexual
o Not sure
o Ambidextrous
o Ask me next week
===========================
Here is some commentary that followed on the BASAPPHO list.

Ellen@aol. wrote:
I was subjected to several phone calls and an inquisition about my
fsexuality from a-dyke due to some stupid rumor that I had a husband. I
self identified as a lesbian to sign up. Not only have I been a dyke
since the age of 19, I have dedicated alot of my life to activism and
advocacy to improve safety in the schools for glbt students, parents,
children of lgbt parents and staff. It felt insulting, intrusive and
invasive to me to be questioned about this. It's going too far.

Commentary by Lyn:
the poll asks "sexual orientation"
what if you said lesbian is your sexual *preference*,
although technically your sexual orientation is
bisexual. we have all been hearing for years that
virtually everyone is a bisexual somewhere on the bell
curve of preference. if you dont act on it, then what
does that make you? if you have an experience with a
man once a decade, but only fall in love with women,
what does that make you?

Hey Adyke: Dont Ask, Dont tell !
=================================
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 7:39 PM
To: Karen;
Subject: Re: Why I've been banned from ADYKE

karen,
after looking at the sexual orientationpoll of adyke
website, it says you may change your answer until the
poll closes, and it has no closing date. if this is a
trick of hers to screen out non-lesbians from
membership, it is certainly odd. it's odd any way
youlook at it, since the group info states it is for
lesbians, so why even have such a poll?? a member's
lesbianism is assumed (and self-assigned.)
if someone were really hiding out on our list, they
would carefully avoid the poll, i'm sure. only the
innocent questioners among us would fall into the
trap, if tha'ts what it is. in fact, i looked at that
poll before, but i didnt even think of its weird
inconsisitency myself.
i just thought, i dont answer really personal stuff
online, and moved on. i mean, i guess i thought it
meant, "being that you are a lesbian, in which
directions do you lean the most?" It appeared to be
allowing fluidity--or as you called it, diversity. it
didnt occur to me to be defensive or suspicious of it.
==================================
2 additional technicalities that came to mind:
i am pretty shocked that they can link the poll
responses to the pollee. i would have assumed it was
anonymous within adkye.

it is not fair that those of us who did not take the
poll are "safe."
no one has contacted me to require that i answer those
questions.
otherwise, i might be banned too, who knows?????
there should be a fair warning that your answers can
be used against you. There may well be a serious
legal issue here, like constitutionsl right to free
speech, or discrimination.
do we have any idea yet how many other women have met
your same fate?

----- Original Message -----
From: Kiriyo Spooner <mailto:kiriyo@sbcglobal.net
To: ; ba-sappho@groups.queernet.org <mailto:ba-sappho@groups.queernet.org
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Having been a long-time supporter of lesbian-only space, I am horrified and
appalled by adyke using a member's poll answer in order to expell them from
the group. This smacks of Big Brother at its worst.

If you want to say this is lesbian-only space and from now on we don't want
anyone who identifies as bi-sexual to be a part of the group, then SAY IT,
be honest about it, and ask people to abide by it. Don't add it as a P.S.
somewhere. Don't use someone's answer in a poll to ban them without a word
of explanation to them as to why. That is TOTALLY different from our
herstoric efforts to fight for wimmin-only and lesbian-only space.
- Kiriyo
posted by:
Kinnari
SF Bay Area
  • Appearances can be deceiving

    Sun, July 8, 2007 - 4:07 PM
    It sure looks that way, except most non-profits are set up to serve a certain portion of society and adyke is set up to serve aging lesbians. To try and counter the appearance of anti-bi feelings, they have created a sister list adyke2 for bi's and other queer women.
    • some appearances are not so deceiving

      Sun, July 8, 2007 - 6:27 PM
      "most non-profits are set up to serve a certain portion of society"...

      no offense, aggie, but that sounds like a cop-out to me. the ADYKE yahoogroup isn't a non-profit, it's an email list. their description uses delightfully inclusive language :

      Ain't Dead Yet Kick-Azz Events (A.D.Y.K.E.) is a list to facilitate the creation of community for lesbians 40 and over, living in the San Francisco Bay Area. There is no such thing as too old on this list. Part of our mission is to remove the stigmas, both internal and external, associated with age. The primary focus of adyke is to post personal invitations to other adykes. It is not an announcement list.

      -------

      so they don't care how old you are, they just care if you're attracted to men as well as women?

      sounds like a bit of hypocrisy to me. what sort of discussion topics are appropriate for women who are only attracted to women vs. women who are just "queer" ?
      • Re: some appearances are not so deceiving

        Sun, July 8, 2007 - 9:01 PM
        How do you know it is not a non-profit? I don;t know if the application has been submitted yet or approved, but adyke is in the process of becoming a non-profit and that why the list was created in the first place.
        • Re: some appearances are not so deceiving

          Tue, July 10, 2007 - 9:18 AM
          "adyke is in the process of becoming a non-profit "

          ... and that's fine. but the yahoogroup is not a non-profit. it's an email list. and a private one, which means that they can kick off whomever they want to kick off; just like the boy scouts can kick out all the gays if they want to. their club, their rules.

          at any rate, the non-profit argument is a red herring. just b/c their charter may be focused on serving a specific group doesn't mean that they're required or even morally justified in excluding folks from outside that group in their discussions and out-reach. in fact, most non-profits that i work with (and i work with a lot) want to reach out to anyone and everyone who's willing to listen to them.

          but like i said, the non-profit issue is a distraction - the real issue is that, IMHO, whoever runs the list is being a bit hypocritical and exclusionary by narrowing their definition of "lesbian" to exclude people who are also attracted to men. which i find offensive in a group of people who've presumably been the victims of exclusionary politics for most of their lives.

          creating a "sister list" is basically applying separate but equal logic, which doesn't hold water to most folks that i know.
          • Re: some appearances are not so deceiving

            Sun, July 15, 2007 - 4:25 PM
            I guess they did an usual thing providing a list serve as part of the services they provide to the community that they provide services to. Don't know that that is a crime, unless doing things different is a crime.

            I still say all nonprofits have a group they provide services for, I think it is even required that they state who that group is in order to get that status and if they are caught not doing what they said to get that status - they probably can lose it.

            Why do you even care? Did they do something to you?
  • Listen, for years n' years n' years the military could be argued as a specifically hetero group. (at least out loud). Queer folks picked that as one of our biggest bitches about descrimination, it was a flag-ship. This ADYKE thing scares the hell out of me, because it's the same geshtappo attitude that perpetualized the bigotry of heterosexual culture.

    Once it could be argued that queer culture had to be exclusive for protection, but that's becomming less and less the case. NOW it's just an excuse to get back at all those nasty nasty people with the hetero tendencys. Sound Familiar?

    "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one". - Friedrich Nietzsche
    • It's not like that at all. It is more like the American Cancer Society not addressing the needs of heart patients. They are a nonprofit that has chosen a group to assist and have gained nonprofit status to assist that group. It does not mean they don't like heart patients, that is just not the group that they have chosen to focus their nonprofit mission on.

      You really should meet some of these people and maybe you would be less scared. It is just old ladies trying to help other old ladies.
      • >t's not like that at all. It is more like the American Cancer Society not addressing the needs of heart patients.

        No, rather it's more like the American Cancer Society refusing to address the needs of a cancer patient because they'd had a heart-attack.

        Old, young, hypocracy knows no age limit.
        • More like they refused to begin doing research on heart attacks just because a cancer patient had one.

          Why is it OK for every other oppressed group to form a subgroup, but not older lesbians. Could it be misogyny is even stronger against older women and hell bent against older lesbians?
          • No, I don't care if a lesbian is 19, 40 or 99. If they form a group that supports same-sex attraction and then start weeding out members just because they are also attracted to the opposite sex that to me says reverse-misogyny.

            I'll do shots with a retired lesbian, but I'll sure as hell voice my oppinion if I see that SAME lesbian kicking someone out of their club because they spotted the fact that that person would date a guy too.

            It's just rediculous, which has nothing to do with age or orientation. Dumb is dumb, and in this case dumb also happens to be dangerous.
            • Well they didn't do that, form a group that supports same sex attraction. They formed a group that supports the survival of aging lesbians.
              • and uncerimoniously kicks out any aging dyke that has the barest inclination towards men, which they shadily rooted out through an innocuous looking questionaire...

                "...There's one smoking a joint! And that ones got spots!
                And if I had my way....I'd have all of you shot!"

                If it is a support group non profit - whatever, that's fine, I'm not screaming shut 'em down.

                I'm just saying they're a pretty piss poor example of one. And their actions just point of fact prove my point.

                Except for the fact that for some reason you keep insisting on trying to defend this dishonest and discriminatory action nothing else would need to be said about it. It pretty much speaks for itself.
          • Here, I'll put it in simpler terms.

            I'm a straight guy (not really, but for the purposes of this example)

            I'm gonna start a night-club. But, if you are gay or bisexual and I know about it I'm not going to let you in. Are you outraged, would the gay/bisexual community be outraged? You bet they would, and they should.

            Now, is the message the gay/bi/trans community wants to put out they they are allowed to be sexually exclusive in their community when the straight communtiy shouldn't be BY LAW? I'm sorry, but that just DOES NOT make sense. Period.
            • Well a nightclub and a nonprofit for a specific group are apples and oranges.

              At this point I think you are just yanking my chain.
              • So what you're saying is you're copping out? Apples and Oranges, legally I suppose they are, but don't tell me you can't see the parallel. Are you seriously defending a descriminatory action here and then asking me if I'm yanking *your* chain?

                Look, all I'm saying is,

                You're wrong.

                And if someone doesn't say so about "little" stuff like this, we've got no one to blame but ourselves when big setbacks to our rights start happening.
                • >if someone doesn't say so about "little" stuff like this, we've got no one to blame but ourselves when big setbacks to our rights start happening.<

                  I agree with you Angel.

                  What if in this organization they had asked people's race and excluded/kicked members out because of that?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    So you think groups that offer scholarships to people of a certain race should not be allowed?

                    Oppressed groups need all the support they can get and if they want to try and support themselves, why not leave them alone. Haven't you got anything better to do than pick on little old lady lesbians?
                    • >>So you think groups that offer scholarships to people of a certain race should not be allowed?

                      Oppressed groups need all the support they can get and if they want to try and support themselves, why not leave them alone. Haven't you got anything better to do than pick on little old lady lesbians?<<

                      This isn't about scholarships and someone's race. Don't twist my words around or confuse what I said.

                      This is about a group that was described as being for LBT people (for lesbians, bisexual women, and transwomen) and then the lesbians got all biphobic and transphobic and kicked out and publically outed the members who identified as bisexual and who weren't bio female since they're transwomen.

                      It's not like they somehow ammended the rules by vote/committee and somehow came up with this and everyone in the group agreed upon it; but they sent out an innocent looking survey and depending on how people answered they kicked them out based on their sexual orientation and gender.
                      • That is not true. adyke was founded to provide services to aging lesbians period. It was founded for no other purpose ever. It was NEVER described at anything other than what it was, a not for profit service for aging lesbians.

                        No transwomen have EVER applied to join adyke and not have ever be refused and that issue is set aside until the non-profit status is acquired and a board of directors can look at how that fits in with a group to help aging lesbians.

                        Those that joined the list and were bi, snuck on knowing it was a service for lesbians only.

                        If there is a group that provides scholarships to African American youth, but I am Chinese and I think they outa give them to me too, I have no right to sneak into their application process and try to get those scholarships. The AA people have a right to choose to give those to AA youth.


                        • back to basics

                          Wed, January 2, 2008 - 4:18 PM
                          hey Aggie,

                          i'm intrigued and actually appreciative that you continue to comment on this thread. i feel like this is a subtle issue, and we all benefit from the dialogue.

                          take a minute to think about this if you will- a group of self-identified queers is telling you that they think ADYKE acted unfairly and inappropriately. potential ADYKE allies, people who have and would stand together with ADYKE's members to fight exclusionary practices, are saying that ADYKE crossed a line by using some of the same tactics that homo-phobic groups have used to exclude queers for decades.

                          doesn't that mean something? regardless of "pending-NPO status", which i can't imagine could possibly hinge on the results of a yahoogroup poll, isn't there room to say "woah. OK, well, maybe ADYKE should have been more up front with the people that were deleted from the list", or "hm. i can see why women who sleep with women might be hurt and insulted by getting dropped from the ADYKE list just because they clicked the 'wrong' box on a silly online poll; maybe ADYKE should apologize for acting so clandestinely"....
                          • Re: back to basics

                            Sat, January 5, 2008 - 5:39 PM
                            Thank you for your gentle approach.

                            Well try to imagine some old lady dykes getting together for a monthly brunch and trying to figure out a multitude of aging issues, those issues that pertain only to them as dykes. After a while the owner starts getting goading emails from bisexuals that have snuck on the list, taunting her that they were there and there was nothing she could do about it.

                            So she creates a poll and sees that a number of bi's have snuck on the list. Next she creates another poll that lets her know their email addresses so that she can remove them. She removes 3 people this way. Several emailed that they weren't really bi and she takes them at their word and reinstates them.

                            Might not have been the best solution to her situation, but does it balance out with her life being threatened since then for having the nerve to want to meet once a month with other lesbians for 2 hours of brunch and for wanting to create a non-profit that will help homeless and indigent lesbians with no retirement help.

                            Aggie
                        • sometimes appearances aren't deceiving at all....

                          Wed, January 2, 2008 - 5:00 PM
                          on a separate note, aggie, i think your true colors are starting to show.... either that, or you have a surprisingly limited world-view for someone defending a 'queer' organization ....

                          you state that no transwomen have EVER applied to join adyke. how do you know? did you have all 995 current members 'drop trou', so that you could check their equipment? would it matter if you did? sounds like you really don't believe that a person not born with female parts can be called a lesbian, which says a lot about how you see the world....

                          and then you refer to people joining the list as "sneaking on" if they were bi... just what makes a lesbian a lesbian anyway? the ADYKE yahoogroup page doesn't say that only lesbians can sign up, so where's the "sneaking"?

                          to me, it sounds like you have a definition in your head of what a lesbian is, and anyone who doesn't fit it is out. for a lot of folks, especially those who acknowledge a degree of attraction to multiple genders, things are not nearly that simple.

                          many people i know change their "political sexual identification" more often than i can keep track of. bi one day, lesbian the next, homo-flexible the week after that... a LOT of queer people that i know give different answers to the "sexual orientation" question depending on the context - political, emotional, romantic... identity and orientation are fluid and complex for some people, and if ADYKE wants to create community amongst "lesbians", it would be to their benefit to learn to communicate with a more sophisticated mindset.

                          so who are you hatin' on, aggie? who's not lesbian-enough for you? how many of those over 40 lesbians in the ADYKE group were married and have kids somewhere? are they less-lesbian? what about a woman who just came out and hasn't actually had any woman-sex yet? what if she's just going through a phase ? do you check their age as well? do they have to fax their driver's license ?


                          • You're right that I can't know, but none to my knowledge and I do know none have been refused.

                            I also know that the trans issue has not been addressed at adyke and no decision has been made on that issue and that a decision has been made to wait for a board of directors to be formed in the non-profit process and let them decide.

                            Since adyke was formed to help women overcome a poverty mentality that most women are raised with and dykes suffer for in retirement, it does leave much to discuss on how transwomen would fit into that picture. But much to learn still in that area.

                            Aggie
  • >Those that joined the list and were bi, snuck on knowing it was a service for lesbians only.

    Oooh, those damn crafty bisexuals, with their wiley ways. If I had my way....

    Once again. You say that it was a service for lesbians. Lesbians is a label, a sub-group, meaning women that prefer other women sexually. Because a woman who prefers the company of other women and also men they're being descriminated against. Sleeping with men is the ONLY difference between a lesbian and a bisexual (other than people being beautiful snowflakes in general).

    I understand what Aggie is pointing out. I'm just saying she's wrong. I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but if you're going to support people because they are same-sex oriented and you start weeding out the ones who do/have/will sleep with men you're no more enlightened, or less bigoted, than any organization who discriminates against alternate sexuality. If you weed them out any other way than publicly stating your objective and requesting they respect it (like a rigged poll) then you are shady on top of it.

    Sorry it's been awhile since I'd dropped in. I'd figured this issue settled.

    In my oppinion the actions of ADYKE are Indefensible.
    • I agree with you Angel, I saw this issue raised originally in the BABN list and it was quite clear from that conversation that the so-called sneaky bisexual who brought the issue up there had been on the ADYKE list for a long time (I got the impression just from memory that it was years!) and had not ever suspected that she would be discriminated against for identifying as Bisexual!

      I find that it is even more oppressive for this Lesbian to come into OUR tribe here and continue to spout her bigotry here in our own back yard so to speak!! Can't we just kick her out of our tribe??? Or at least to tell her to shut it!! This is the exact sort of crap that keeps me from jioning ANY thing with the L word attached to it, I swear I get more acceptance from gay men and the trans community! For crying out loud, Maggie Rubenstein is an out and proud Bisexual in her SEVENTIES (been out since her teens!) and she is sick to death of this argument, do we have to be closeted in our own community???
      • No, I think it's important for arguments/discussions/etc. like this to play out in front of people. I can see how this is a hot button topic, and if it's not it damn well should be. What is wrong with having a certain expectation of tolerance among people that share your plight?

        No, of *course* it's not your "responsibility" to be the mother to every L-word watching lipstick train-wreck that thinks that too much vodka = alternate sexuality, especially at frat partys. That said, it's also shooting yourself in the foot to sneak around behind people's back, conduct a "profiling" questionaire, and then boot people who lets be honest are probably just as much in need of a sense of community and identification.

        Hell reach out, suggest resources that will suit them better, but thumb your noses at them because they're different from you? Does anyone else say that out loud and want to gag?

        If not, shame on you.
        • Uh, gee Angel, not sure if you were addressing me here or someone else?

          I don't normally get so vehement about this subject, but I still find it quite rude for a lesbian to come into this tribe and continue to spout bigotry after several months, still trying to defend her ignorance about her own bigotry!!

          Are you saying that *I* am thumbing my nose at anyone? Not even trying to do that, but I see nothing wrong with turning my back on someone who has already shunned ME for being different! Especially a whole group of someones! As far as reaching out to them goes. I have NEVER had a good experience with doing that, every time I have tried ( coming up on 20 years now) I have benn put down as being out as Bi, never did the Lesbian phase, never Identified as straight, came out at 17 as Bi. But when I decided to go looking for a support group at the Local BGLT (alphabetical!) center, this is what happened:

          There were no bi support groups at that point in Santa Cruz (there were three just six months later which I gleefully attended!) so I went in to look around. I was still young and allergic to a lot of things then, and had forgotten to make sure I had lunch that day. I sat for at least two hours in the front lobby trying to gather my strength to go get food and such (I sat there like a zombie), and listened to three lesbians badmouth bisexuals and men! For three hours! Not one of them asked if I was ok, if I was gay, if I was needing any help or anything! I finally left. This experience made it plain to me that I would never want to ID as a Lesbian. And it is an experience that has been repeated in some fashion on other occasions. For what ever reason, I'm more susceptable to judgement from women than men, and thus have never looked for resources for lesbians, by lesbians or with lesbians. I need more judgment from them like I need a hole in my head. They have used me for target practice to often.

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